Pernell Goodyear

Interview With The Emergent Kiwi: Steve Taylor

Monday, November 20, 2006

Recently I caught up with Steve Taylor, author of The Out Of Bounds Church? via e-mail and asked him a few questions that I was curious about.

Pernell: If you were writing the book now - knowing what you know - what would be different? Any additional postcard ideas you would like to explore? Anything you would cut?

Steve: I would add 3 extra postcards; I would write one from the lounge of Mark Berry, in Telford and would explore the place of daily practices in the spiritual formation. We have seen a rise in neo-monasticism in the last 2 years since the book was published and I would want to, as I do with all of the postcards, both affirm and critique its possibilities. I love the daily rythym but I am concerned (using Postcard 8's the DJ metaphor), that the emerging church is just "cherry picking" monasticism without paying attempt to the years of serious spiritual formation that lie at the heart of monasticism.

I would write a second postcard from Regen in Denmark. This would explore the place of justice in response to globalisation. It would continue the ideas in The Out Of Bounds Church?, but my thinking has been sharpened since then. The emerging church needs to participate in justice through partnering with Creativity Downloaded (Postcard 4) and the Edges of Culture (Postcard 2).

I would write a third one from behind the pulpit and inside the stone walls of Opawa Baptist Church. In this postcard I would apply the earlier images in the book; of Koru theology, Creativity Downloaded; to the established church. My move from Graceway as a church plant to Opawa Baptist as a 96 year old church was because of my conviction that this culture of change was affecting all churches.

Pernell: Obviously Opawa is a more traditional/established church context than you were previously in with Graceway. Can you paint the picture of what Opawa is like, and what emerging church may look like in more established contexts?

Steve: People kept saying that The Out Of Bounds Church? could only work in church planting situations. There is this belief that historic churches cannot change. There is a strange dualism that separates traditional church from emerging church. I think these beliefs and dualisms limit the creativity of people to be transformed by the renewing of God's Spirit. So after 9 years at Graceway and for a wide range of reasons (including the health of my father), we moved cities and churches. Last year I was asked to talk about some of the changes that have emerged at Opawa and I realised that many of them could be traced back to the postcards. We have planted an emerging congregation called Espresso as part of Opawa. We have commenced training growth coaches to encourage 24/7 discipleship. We have introduced spirituality2go resources and a more tactile, whole-bodied worship. It has been a great learning curve for me and for Opawa.

Pernell: It seems that there are many similarities between New Zealand and Canadian culture, what advice would you give to potential Canadian emerging church planters, or those who may be considering pastoring an established church with the goal of moving them into more emerging missionality?

Steve: One of the best bits of advice I got given was a throwaway comment from one of my friends "I guess you want to be doing this in 5 years time." It stopped me in my tracks. Church planting and church change is hard work. So start as you mean to continue. Build sustainable patterns for yourself and your family and the church from the word "go". Have patterns you know will sustain you. And always keep focused on what God is doing. Ministry is not about you. It's about participating in the work of God's Spirit. Look for that.

Pernell: Are you considering writing another book at all? If so, what will the new work be like? How will it differ from your excellent blog?

Steve: I have stacks of ideas for books. I am working on how the Bible can be used in the emerging church; which builds on a course I teach at Fuller Seminary called "Living The Text". I am also working on a Missional reader - a practical guidebook and introduction to missional church practices. I would also like to develop spirituality2go takeaway resources - building on my Postcard 5: Spiritual Tourism. I just need some publishers or entreprenurial funders (hint, hint) and to create some space to write.

I appreciate your encouragement regarding the blog. I find the tension between books and blogs fascinating. This might just be me, but blogs seem great for instant and fast ideas. But they are time consuming. They take me away from processing, reflection and integration that can add depth.

Well, there you have it folks. Feel free to interact with Steve [or I] in the comments.

About Me

I am Pernell Goodyear. I live in a beautiful old house in downtown Hamilton, Ontario with my wife Margaret - who was my college sweetheart - and our three great kids: Samantha, Lucas, and Jacob... and our miniature schnauzer, "Bear."

I am a pastor at a church I started in 2002 called The Freeway. I am also a founding leader at Resonate, a director of a training centre for Allelon, and a member of the TrueCity network.

Mark B said:

I am of course flattered that Steve would want to add a postcard from Telford... TBH since we started here he has been a great support... I also agree with his concerns re. new-monasticism, we are exploring what it means to hold intentional community, spiritual formation as part of the journey and missional lifestyle as a foundation to reimagining christian community; in some ways it hasn't been about drawing on history, but finding resonance after the fact... dreaming then being led/finding stories that seem to reflect/speak into where we are... what we will not do is stop reflecting and critiquing who and what we are... for us the celtic monastic image is helpful because; it is about movement and mission, it seems to see spiritual formation as an intrinsic part of relationships within and without the community, it seeks to atune to the rhythm of creation rather than impose a rhythm, it talks about hospitality and challenge and the communities seem to seek to be exposed rather than enclosed... but, we want to resist aping or looking for models rather to find contemporary ways of being a missional/spiritual community.

4:53 PM

Pernell said:

Mark - Steve has been a big supporter of me/us here at The Freeway as well. He's a great guy... and a terrific leader. His voice is very important in emerging circles.

What you guys are doing in Telford sounds amazing. I love the idea of rhythm and movement in new-monasticism. I would love to visit some time and see it first-hand.

What resources have you found really helpful along the journey of safe space?

Thanks for inspiring some thought.

By the way, how was Houston?

5:38 PM

Anonymous said:

mark,
I sometimes wonder how missional some of these monastic movements were? How many of them were about the survival of Christianity by a withdrawing from society? How do we avoid romanticising the past?

I worry that in a few years we will be "done" with the fad that was nu-monasticism.

These are general questions, as I think what you are doing in Telford is exercising discernment, you are listening well not only to your context, but the monastic context as well.

steve
www.emergentkiwi.org.nz

5:58 PM

Jamie Arpin-Ricci said:

I agree with Steve's concerns about cherry picking from traditions without a larger understanding of all that is involved with them. That being said, the new monasticism is similar to traditional monasticism in that the former was a lay movement of believers, the depth growing through centuries of tradition.

Therefore, while I affirm it is a well stated cautionary note, I think far more Christians need to risk cherry picking and step into new ways of being missional together.

Sadly, as Steve commented on above, many of those movement lost their revolutionary roots, for many reasons. In many ways, the control of the establish church was extended over these movements in attempts to co-opt their growing authority and influence. Some simply fell pray to the (inevitable) institutionalization that often comes with time and growth.

So, while there are challenges and concerns, the new monasticism offers us the potential to recreate. Call it redemptive cherry picking, but we can benefit from the strengths and weaknesses of the past. Let's make the best of it.

In the end, I am not sure it is all that helpful to put a name to it, as it might too narrowly identify it. At our YWAM ministry here, we have many aspects of the new monasticism. However, by not fully identifying and embracing all the values of the NM, we are able to engage a wider spectrum of people with some its values.

Great conversation so far!

Peace,
Jamie

7:05 PM

Yeah, great thoughts Jamie. Your phrase "redemptive cherry picking" was sort of why I wrote Postcard 8: DJing. I wanted to talk about the ethics of DJing. Or to use your phrase; how do we redemptively cherry pick?

I explore Moby's lack of ethics; lack of awareness of the cultures he samples from, and argue that Christians can only cherry pick as they learn the back story, go deep into the context of where the "cherry" grew from.

So cherry pick new-monasticism by all means. But do it by reading, learning, respecting the back story, not by taking a few little tricks to sex up our worship.

Does that make sense?

steve
www.emergentkiwi.org.nz

7:09 PM

Hey Pernell,

Can you add a link to for the 2nd extra postcard - http://www.re-gen.dk/ - It's in Danish, but people might still want to visit.

peace
steve
www.emergentkiwi.org.nz
www.outofboundschurch.org

7:13 PM

Steve,

Absolutely, that make sense and I agree. When cherry picking is done as trendy sampling, we risk trivializing the most important vocational mandates fro Christ to His Church.

Peace,
Jamie

7:27 PM

David Fitch said:

Steve,

I appreciate your encouragement towards established churches - and your experience at Opawa. I find very little of that going on in the Canadian or wider N. American context. When this does happen, I have seen a second worship time started with very missional sensibilities, and mostly 20's, 30's show up, or married w/o kids, and something takes shape there that leads to a different church. Is this waht happened at Opawa?
Also, I so much resonate with the 5 years and the steady consistent pattern of life advice.
Excellent words .. thanks for the book!
Blessings ... David Fitch

9:27 PM

thanks David. It's not easy to describe our Opawa journey in a single blog comment.I have written a 3,000 word article, due out soon, from http://www.ministrytoday.org.uk/; in which I tell the story and read it theologically using the Trinity.

In essence I inherited a very traditional church and a belief that God could work in all settings, even traditional. I am running multiple missional experiments with and among them; all the time hoping to start conversations which help us as a community discern the way forward.

It is hard, intuitive work. We have started new congregations; including a hymn service to help those who like hymns become more missional; and 2 different types of cafe style missional congregations. We have also made numerous innovations in the existing services.

We have worked very hard on values and on shifting the focus from Sunday church to shared practices across diverse congregations.

Equally we have worked very hard on these diverse congregations meeting all together not around worship but around shared mission, prayer and food.

Fundamentally I believe in the resurrection. Dead things, including churches, can, in the power of the Spirit, live. I wonder how many church startups owe a debt to individualism rather than God's redemptive work.

I am trying to compress 3 years into 1 blog comment. Feel free to ask me more questions as I have probably just made you more confused.

thanks for your kind words about the book and I hope we can keep talking,

peace
steve
www.emergentkiwi.org.nz

4:59 AM

Steve said:

Steve, thanks for what you've shared regarding Opawa. Looking forward to your article & more of the story.

Would you classify some of the missional experiments & new congregations as churches within a church?

Have you had to deal with any feedback from traditional members coming from a mindset that what you're doing isn't real church? If so, how do you respond to that?

11:20 AM

"is it real church" - yep. heard that.

when we started our first new congregation I was running 3 simultaneous missional change projectts
1) i was working with a seeking person, dialoguing with them about what shape of church would help their journey;
2) i was working with a, to use your words - "church within a church" planting team
3) i was asking our existing people the question "what is church"? songs and a sermon wasn't in the bible? i was greatly helped in that we had a new form of church called Side Door in our midst.

anyhow we decided that church was about relationship with God; other; self- and so we use that as a value template to talk about church. that has greatly helped.

also I preach often on John 20 - the different way's Jesus disciples responded and followed Jesus - peter actively runs; mary worship; john thinks; thomas doubts. i talk about how churches cater most often for marys and johns, but rarely peters or thomas's; and so we need new forms of church within our church. I owe that biblical gem to phil mcreedden at www.signposts.org.ua.

a final clincher is joking to them- well our new forms of church like discussion and U2 music, so if you want to be one church, we can always stop singing and sermoning on Sunday morning. it sort of makes the point.

again, i have condensed 3 years into 1 blog comment and probably made no sense.

for me, a key thing is that we at Opawa are now having a very different conversation - what is church based on mission and bible in our context? and that's a great question isn't it.

steve
www.emergentkiwi.org.nz

1:32 PM

David, can I ask you to talk a bit more about your comment "I appreciate your encouragement towards established churches - and your experience at Opawa. I find very little of that going on in the Canadian or wider N. American context."

It seems to me that the next decade is going to see lots and lots and lots of established churches wanting to transition. If this is right, then might established churches not be are most important mission horizon - helping ordinary people find new hope and fresh practices to live by?

Why do you think that established churches and mission is not higher on the radar in your contexts?

steve
www.emergentkiwi.org.nz

10:33 PM

Steve,

My experience in "evangelical" (as self described in N. America) and Canadian contexts is there is a stunning divide between established churches, even more pragmatic mega-churches and the missional church types. And a very difficult resistance to missional type church by 40+ age group with children, and denominations who have a structure to keep going. I have experienced this is in overt ways at conferences, as well as in our won church,as well as in reports from numerous pastors. So I leave a little chastened towards the established church as being fertile ground for missional church. Yet I am just as convinced we must find a way to transition or the future generations may dwindle to little or nothing.

Again Blessings on your work! I hope we meet along the way

David Fitch

PS ... Steve, if you're ever in Chicago area could you give me an e-mail. We'd like to have you at Northern Seminary in some way!

7:08 PM

Paul Fromont said:

Thanks for the interview Pernell and Steve. I’m grateful too for the conversation (by way of comments) and want to add a few thoughts of my own:

Firstly, I share some of Steve’s concern around a “nu-monasticism” disconnected from the deep, slow-flowing work of Spirit/Word that flows beneath and within the Christian monastic tradition(s). Specifically, and I think this is what Steve is saying; we take something of the form of monasticism (e.g. monastic titles such as “abbot and abbess”; or indeed, even the descriptor “monastery” or “abbey”) but neglect the more important passed-on substance, values, tradition, practices etc that give the descriptor meaning and substance. Sadly contemporary appropriation too often lacks any substantive knowledge of the historical narrative, the symbol, wisdom, praxis, liturgy, catechesis etc that formed, shaped, corrected, re-formed, and sustained the Christian monastic tradition.

For example, can something be called “monastic” or “nu-monastic” if there is no (or little) regard for immersing oneself in the deep waters of the monastic prayer tradition and its emphasis on “union with God”? I’m being deliberately provocative, but it seems to me that we all too often rush to call ourself something ahead of the slow intentional, disciplined work of becoming something through hard work.

We have a natural tendency to walk before we can sit, crawl and stand. I’m all for humbly recovering, renovating, and re-working the formational practices of our monastic tradition, but I’m not going to call myself a monk. The alternative to practicing (or “cherry-picking”) the tradition is to “bury” the tradition and its practices (think of the parable of the “talents’) either by neglect them, dishonouring them, or demeaning them.

Secondly, I’m not convinced that Western monasticism (particularly the Benedictine tradition and its reforms) was inherently missional in the sense that many of us today talk about “missional.” Contrast that with the more mendicant ‘orders’ of preachers (e.g. Dominicans; and even they weren’t strictly missional in a “kingdom” sense), the Franciscans and some streams of the Celtic tradition(s). In many ways I would have expected this latter mendicant grouping to feature in any contemporary “re-mix” that took the inward and outward journeys seriously.

Finally, I’m grateful (though there’s a lot more work to do) for Steve’s comments on “growth coaching,” sustaining (and nourishing) ministry, and “Spirituality2go” run pleasingly counter to what I often see, which is a lack of creativity and intentionality around spiritual formation & discipleship. A priority of Missiology, but more often ecclesiology (how we are church) over and against core relationality (the Godward dimension) threatens the long-term sustainability of our emerging expressions of church. Without this Godward dimension the form (of being church – whether that is art centre, coffee house, pub, alt-worship etc) takes priority of the importance of trans-formation and the Godwardness that needs to nourish form and practice.

11:09 PM

sorry back late to these comments...

I agree that there is a tension in monasticism between withdrawal and engagement ... some thoughts here...
http://markjberry.blogs.com/way_out_west/2006/10/here_there_or_e.html

As I mentioned we have drawn on the "Celtic" strand which has equal measure withdrawal (Skellig and the 'Desert on the Ocean') and Missionary (Patrick, Killian etc)... pre the Roman Church spreading across Europe Celtic travelling Monks took Christianity right across northern Europe - particularly the Frankish world (Germany and north France) - Celtic lands, establishing new monastic communities.... and of course we have the story of English Patrick evangelising Ireland!

TBH I HOPE that we will be done with the fad of nu-monasticism soon, then we get on with wrestling with what it really means to live as a missional community. The call to a new expression/commitment to community is not new (from the above post)...

Bonhoeffer wrote,

The renewal of the church will come from a new type of monasticism which only has in common with the old an uncompromising allegiance to the Sermon on the Mount.

...and Br Samuel SSF wrote,

The renewal of both the Church and Society will come through the re-emergence of forms of Christian community that are homes of generous hospitality, places of challenging reconciliation and centres of attentiveness to the living God.

I have to say I love this conversation, and as yet have found nothing in it that I disagree with (not a real surprise!)

For us this whole thing is very anti-romantic and very un-sexy (hopefully not trendy in a consumer sense, but maybe trendy in the sense of there being a move of the spirit?)... TBH it is a real struggle and whilst we sit pretty lightly to much of it as we struggle to work out how to be a tiny community that makes a huge impact/difference to the wider community. We are still in the very early days of learning and are no doubt making plenty of mistakes!

5:29 AM

joe said:

hi steve, pernell & all...

in response to your question on the attraction to new monasticism, this is how i see it: as a north american evangelical i feel very 'cheap'. this realization first hit me when i became friends with an egyptian coptic orthox fellow who was in my age group. as time passed and our relationship grew, i learned more about his tradition and approach to the godhead and the scriptures i couldn't help but feeling sick. i painted this picture to him: your tradition is like a ruby studded golden goblet passed down from generation to generation while i feel like my tradition can be compared to a wax coated mcdonalds cup that takes on the images of the summer's hottest movie. in 100 years, your cup will most likely be around...after the summer's over, my cup will have been thrown away and replaced with the next big sell or gimmick. the proof? north american evagelicalism moves in waves (books, conferences, big names they're all so temporary) and our ferocious appetite for new!, more!, now!, success! has proven insatiable...and i believe it's killing us from the inside out.

perhaps then, this draw to new monasticism (if it's not just another flavour of the week) offers stability, credibility and hope to a new breed of jesus followers that have found no place to call home within contemporary evangelicalism.

btw, steve, your book was great. as i mentioned to you once before it very much encouraged me in my church planting process. in fact, i loved it so much i purchased extra copies and gave them away to pastors/church leaders. thanks for all your help!

9:37 AM

Steve,

I cannot speak for everyone, but my attraction to the new monasticism (though, again, I dislike that these movements become overly defined) are as follows:

-the intentionality of community, subversively undermining the deep rooted individualism in our culture

-the integration of missional vocation and where we center our lives

-a significant emphasis on commonality of praxis not just doctrine (not that one is more important than the other)

However, I do not think these things can only be practiced in the context of the new monasticism. As I said in an earlier comment, we wouldn't be considered an expression of it in our ministry, but we do reflect many of the values it embraces.

Peace,
Jamie

10:57 AM

re. why the fascination new-monasticism...
Good comments above, I agree with both... and I guess that for many of us there is a growing need to move from the supreficiality of "Sundays and Sermons" to try to find more holistic and honest expression and practice of community. For a number of reasons;

to move beyond an "everythings great with God" level of worship and accountability to a "warts and all" real depth of expression and relationship,

to see spiritual formation as a community discovery and activity rather than a didactic pedagogy,

to wrestle with and find ways of reflecting the foundation stories of scripture more authentically,

to shift the emphasis to being a spiritual community rather from the all consuming production of the 'gathering' (partly the reason for exploring 'rhythm' and rule),

to grasp at some sense of connection with the christian community, ancient and modern, maybe fed up with and disenchanted by the 'experts' of today folk are becoming attracted to the fathers and mothers of faith through the ages?

to find the best way to nurture and sustain a community which has at the core of it's DNA radical engagement with community and culture - which is not easy!- and with God in community and culture,

I agree that for some of the communities new-monasticism has less to do with being missional than it has to do with trying find a more holistic and inclusive expression of community... and God forbid, some may be simply jumping on the latest 'model'/'fashion'!

I also want to raise the possibility that there is a move of the Spirit going on to re-orientate and re-imagine the church... part of which is about fitting the church for mission and part of which is about re-discovering the richness expressions of community and spirituality which feels like it has been denied those of us who grew up within the rational, modernist, protestant, individualistic, proffesional, evangelical, charismatic churches. Perhaps also their are wider issues; that in this individualistic, consumer culture there is a desperate need for a sense of true community and fellowship AND maybe something about 'spirituality' also... perhaps then there are somethings missing from culture that are deep needs for the human condition... which as yet the Church has failed to grapple with fully?

1:31 PM

ron said:

Steve talks about sustainable patterns...starting as you mean to continue. I would love to hear more practioners who are in traditional settings as Steve went into, talk about transition.To lead a community to somewhere on the horizon through landscapes not naviagted before, to keep them focused...with out always wanting to look back to where they came from. We seem to hear lots about the destination...but not much about the journey. I died in the land of transition...I'd love to hear stories of people who have made it through to the other side.Anyway, Steve and Pernell thanks for sharing...it was great. Peace...Ron+

8:22 AM

Ron, goodness me you raise such an important question. in some ways the spirituality and skills of pastoral transitions are quite different from planting. i will give this some thought and get back to you on this. thanks for raising it,

steve
www.emergentkiwi.org.nz

4:17 PM

Interview With The Emergent Kiwi: Steve Taylor

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